condwiramurs:

shadowfire1223:

[snip]

#why does thor even have to Be Getting Through To Him #he may not have EVER wanted to be part of this but had no fucking choice #why is thor the only one allowed to have a goddamn conscience #now and then #loki is brilliant at convincing himself of shit he doesn’t actually believe #like say that he really wants to be a king #when from the start he was pointing out he didn’t want the throne #only to be equal #but nobody will let him frame his desires except in terms of having a throne #so eventually he tries to make it seem that he’s meeting their expectations #because that’s how a shame culture like asgard’s WORKS #and it helps him not feel so weak and shameful #for giving in to thanos #to say Yeah I totally wanted it all along #all my idea #I was in complete control

^One of the things I find most distasteful is the idea that he wouldn’t have given in, wouldn’t be here, if he were a good person, because the good guys never give up.

This is a false and harmful way to think. EVERYONE gives up. Loki is not weak for having done so. Torture breaks EVERYONE; the idea is how they can grow past it, and what they become afterwards. People like to compare Tony Stark and Loki here, but the thing is, this isn’t Loki growing past it. This is Loki STILL IN IT. Tony, as brilliant as he was, was still handed the materials to build a suit out of that hellhole, and he still acted docile and helpful until it was finished. Loki was only just now handed the sceptre, and the damn thing comes with a mind-altering clause attached. Also, Tony blew the entire compound to get out, regardless of who was in there that didn’t particularly want to be. Loki’s way out is Midgard, and he’s causing remarkably little damage to do so considering what he is capable of.

However, as the tags there say, he’s likely not going to think of it in this terms. To him, this is a humiliating experience, a manifestation of his weakness. And he hasn’t got the leeway to admit to it. He hasn’t had that leeway since he was a child.

As for Thanos…I tend to lean towards him being of the opinion that Odin wouldn’t listen. Which, considering Odin’s “trial”, is entirely possible. Why should they? Even if he could swallow the last shreds of pride he’s clinging to and admit that he was coerced, who would listen? He’s making excuses. He’s shifting the blame. He’s trying to get out of punishment. He’s using his silver tongue again. Why would he assume Thor or Midgardians to view his words any differently?

I wish Marvel would bring Thanos back and start trying to explain what’s going to happen now, because seriously, if Thanos is defeated because his insect army was laid low, I am REALLY disappointed. But I suspect that even if they did, the whole thing wouldn’t involve Loki at all, and will leave us more questions to struggle with.

(I didn’t mean to hijack the post, if that’s what I did…new to Tumblr etiquette, forgive me.)

THISTHISTHIS thank you yes.

Comparison to Tony I love, yes. And exactly, torture breaks EVERYONE. It’s not weakness to give in, though Loki and the rest of Asgard would view it that way.

And seriously, who WOULD listen? Nobody’s shown him that they care about anything he has to say, not even Frigga. Plus, with Heimdall and his magic throne, Odin likely already knows full well EXACTLY what Loki went through because he fucking watched it happen and didn’t intervene (which Loki would have realized and which would have been the final nail in the coffin of any filial respect or love he felt).

No, if Loki’s at the point of being able to consciously weigh the coercion argument vs the ‘I only did what you told me was right’ argument, then he knows full well that the former isn’t going to do him a damn bit of good. Though I suspect he may not even be at that point fully yet.

I agree Odin knows — if he knew about the Chitauri he must have known about Thanos. But Loki knows Thor doesn’t know (“who controls the would-be king?”). Even if Loki is willing to lie to Thor for reasons of pure pride, that doesn’t make the same kind of sense re Frigga…

(Source: katieyord)

opalescentnanomachines:

loki-is-misunderstood:

opalescentnanomachines:

queeniestargazer:

beanup:

katieyord:

sentiment.

….and Loki cries at that point because Thor was finally getting through to him but the power of the tesseract was too much and the threat from The Other and Thanos was too great, hence the line of “sentiment”…. Can I now go and cry and rock in a corner… thanks

ohhhhh my……

I think Thor was getting through to him the entire time — but what’s he going to do? Drop the whole thing and do what Thor wants, and drag Asgard into war with Thanos? He cries here because Thor just won’t
give up already, and he knows he can neither accept nor explain why not, so he’s been actively trying to make Thor hate him so that Thor won’t get mixed up in what happens to him later. And Thor, as usual, is not cooperating. He already knows what Tony tells him later: that there’s no version of this where he’ll win.
Yes. Wish TTDW had shed more light on why he can’t explain re Thanos. My headcannon is that either in order to persuade Thanos to trust him, Loki’s sworn some kind of oath to Thanos never to mention him (lest Asgard or any other of the nine realms get a heads’ up about Thanos’ threat to the universe) or else Thanos has ordered Loki never to mention him on pain of some additional threat — possibly a threat to destroy Asgard once Thanos gets the Infinity Gauntlet, whereas, if Loki doesn’t betray him, Thanos has promised Loki he will spare Asgard once he gets the Infinity Gauntlet? we have no idea. All we know is that Loki a/k/a Odin is not only dispersing the Infinity Gems/Stones, breaking the component powers of the Infinity Gauntlet and so requiring anyone who wishes to wield it to gather them together again, he’s dispersing them to creatures such as the Collector who will fight tooth and nail not to give them up. Clearly Loki is still plotting against Thanos. We still don’t know why Loki doesn’t tell anyone he’s doing so.
I’ve always kind of assumed he’s too vulnerable to the Other. He doesn’t initiate the contact via scepter we see happen, the scepter itself activates and pulls him into it. I figure he’s got no real idea how closely they’re able to monitor him, and he can’t take the chance that they’ll realize he’s giving them up, and he’d already been kicked in the butt by using his concealment magic to get around Heimdall in the Thor movie since just the fact he’s hidden from spying kind of indicates he’s up to something. That, or the scepter is keeping him from talking about Thanos. It
is a mind-control device, and it may have other settings besides “Fealty Mode.”
That makes sense for the Avengers. But why not tell Frigga in TTDW? Should be easy: “It’s not what it looked like, Mom. It wasn’t my choice all along….”

(via condwiramurs)

opalescentnanomachines:

queeniestargazer:

beanup:

katieyord:

sentiment.

….and Loki cries at that point because Thor was finally getting through to him but the power of the tesseract was too much and the threat from The Other and Thanos was too great, hence the line of “sentiment”…. Can I now go and cry and rock in a corner… thanks

ohhhhh my……

I think Thor was getting through to him the entire time — but what’s he going to do? Drop the whole thing and do what Thor wants, and drag Asgard into war with Thanos? He cries here because Thor just won’t
give up already, and he knows he can neither accept nor explain why not, so he’s been actively trying to make Thor hate him so that Thor won’t get mixed up in what happens to him later. And Thor, as usual, is not cooperating. He already knows what Tony tells him later: that there’s no version of this where he’ll win.
Yes. Wish TTDW had shed more light on why he can’t explain re Thanos. My headcannon is that either in order to persuade Thanos to trust him, Loki’s sworn some kind of oath to Thanos never to mention him (lest Asgard or any other of the nine realms get a heads’ up about Thanos’ threat to the universe) or else Thanos has ordered Loki never to mention him on pain of some additional threat — possibly a threat to destroy Asgard once Thanos gets the Infinity Gauntlet, whereas, if Loki doesn’t betray him, Thanos has promised Loki he will spare Asgard once he gets the Infinity Gauntlet? we have no idea. All we know is that Loki a/k/a Odin is not only dispersing the Infinity Gems/Stones, breaking the component powers of the Infinity Gauntlet and so requiring anyone who wishes to wield it to gather them together again, he’s dispersing them to creatures such as the Collector who will fight tooth and nail not to give them up. Clearly Loki is still plotting against Thanos. We still don’t know why Loki doesn’t tell anyone he’s doing so.

mercilessraven:

Because there is no such thing as to much Loki. Making lying and trickery sexy just by being him :D

(via condwiramurs)

http://plumadesatada.tumblr.com/post/72946268630/foolishwriter-krakensdottir-apparently-there

foolishwriter:

krakensdottir:

Apparently there is still some argument over whether Loki was tortured/coerced into the actions of The Avengers? And whether there was any mind-scrambling involved?

Well I can see why. I mean…

  • Thanos would never do a thing like that (torture), because…

Am I not your mother? - A bit on Frigga, Loki, and justice

condwiramurs:

Mostly under a cut to spare your dash. Trigger warning for discussion of suicidality, shame, racism, emotional abuse, and imprisonment - you know canon. This turned out a bit longer and slightly less organized than I wanted, but it’ll do. The bolded questions towards the end are really the heart of this post, what gave rise to it.

I’ve been struggling a lot lately with the relationship between Frigga and Loki in TDW, and what it suggests about Frigga. There’s so much about the depiction of this relationship in canon that troubles me or outright triggers me that I won’t even try to go into all of it here. Rather, I’m pulling out one thread, one question, to look at because it intersects with my standing theme of how Loki’s arc casts light on certain aspects of the question of justice.

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hiddlestoned-and-lokid:

[loki & odin scene - script]

That’s what bugs me about The Avengers…Loki’s telling Thor that he remembers Thor “Tossing him into an abyss” when LOKI LET GO! UGH! 

My headcannon was Loki was lying to Thor because Thanos was listening

(via lokiandarock)

lokeanrampant:

mikkeneko:

andyoucouldhaveitall:

loudthor:

adrian-of-rome:

nature4all:

No, see, this is what people forget. Loki WAS the rightful king. Thor was fuckin BANISHED, ya hear me? Odin cast him the FUCK out! So when Odin couldn’t be king anymore, it obviously fell to his other son, Loki. And he gets all this bullshit about how he didn’t deserve to be king. The fucker was the RIGHTFUL KING OF ASGARD. Frost Giant or no, deceitful bastard or not, he fuckin deserved that crown. And he didn’t want it, he said he didn’t at the end of the damn movie. He just wanted to make his father proud, by showing him he could be just as good as Thor, if not better. Showing him he could be a true leader. But he was betrayed by the people who were supposed to trust and obey him. Because no one, NO ONE wanted Loki to be king, because no one thought he could do the damn job. Because he fucking wasn’t Thor.

And you wonder why he wanted Thor dead, after all that? The man he could never live up to, even though he was already better, wiser, stronger, and more level-headed than him? But according to everyone, Thor was better.

Fuuuuuck that. Loki should have been king until Odin woke up. Loki knew what he was doing, and it was the fact that people kept repeatedly fucking him over because they didn’t think he was able to do anything that led him to use drastic measures. He just wanted to be Thor’s fuckin equal.

Well said! Thank you. This is exactly what I have said, in the past, and I will continue to say it. He was treated so wrongly!

Hell, Thor even said it. Thor told Odin (Loki) that his brother deserved to wear the crown more than he did.

Loki deserved that crown not because he was wise or level-headed, but because he was second in line after Thor. That is the only reason he received the crown as he did.

Also, might I point out that a worthy king would not allow the frost giants into Asgard out of jealousy. Nor would a worthy king lie to the true heir about his father’s death, kill the heir, and try to destroy an entire realm.

A true king, no matter what betrayals he might face, would keep a level head. Nothing Loki did displays a level head or the actions of a true, worthy king deserving of the throne.

Funny thing about a hereditary monarchy: being next in line is really all it takes to be rightfully king. Personal virtue doesn’t enter into it. Sometimes I think that American writers just don’t understand how monarchies work, and unconsciously have everybody act as though they’re in a free republic and get a say on who’s in charge depending on how much they like him.

And for that matter, on how monarchies work when it comes to questions of treason and betrayal. Hey, do you realize that as of the latest movie: Heimdall has committed treason three times, the W4 three times, and Thor* twice? That’s right, every single one of them has committed more treason than Loki has, and yet seem to be remarkably unbothered by any kind of consequences. (*Thor being the exception; his banishment could be regarded as punishment for his first breach of the Jotunheim edict. It certainly didn’t seem to be for the death of the frost giants, since ‘murder’ and ‘kill’ never appear in Odin’s banishment speech.) Three times in two movies. Wow. That’s like, a 150% treason rate per movie. But then again, most of these acts of treason were made in response to Loki’s first act of treason; and it’s okay for heroes to do villainous things as long as the villain does them first, right? Since they had proof of Loki’s treason, they couldn’t have not acted…

They did have proof of Loki’s treason when they acted, right?

One can follow the logic, of course: the Frost Giants got in through magical transportation, and as Loki is the only one in the Nine Realms capable of magical transporta — hang on. At this point in the movie, they don’t even know that Loki can walk the secret paths. That was a secret; nobody knew. Even Heimdall didn’t know, and magical methods of transportation are his job. The entire ‘logic’ behind their targeting of Loki as the culprit goes as follows:

1) The Frost Giants got in through some means we don’t understand.
2) Hey, Loki is also capable of things we also don’t understand.
3) Loki must have done it!

That is actually a stunningly classic illustration of argument from ignorance. Hey, we don’t know that Loki didn’t do it, therefore he might have. And even though he’s been our friend for years and just saved our butts twice in quick succession, he doesn’t fall down and worship the ground Thor walks on, therefore he must be evil.

There was always Laufey’s “The house of Odin is full of traitors” clue to go on, of course. Hang on, even leaving aside the question as to why they’re taking the word of their enemy king on anything in the first place, why did Laufey say that? We saw from Loki’s entrance in Laufey’s throne room the second time that Laufey didn’t know that Loki was the one who let the Frost Giants in. Laufey wasn’t coyly alluding to Loki’s identity in the first scene; he didn’t know it was him at all. So… how exactly did Laufey know that the traitor was of the house of Odin in the first place? Used in a family sense, Odin’s ‘house’ consists of exactly four people: Odin himself, Thor, Loki, and Frigga. That’s a mighty small pool of suspects to target on absolutely zero evidence. (Or maybe he’s just talking shit about Odin and Odin’s family in general, since he’s still bitter about being defeated.) Or did he mean ‘house’ in the more general sense of ‘household,’ as in, the entire palace? That kind of makes more sense, since the secret paths were inside the palace after all, but it widens the pool of suspects considerably.

The palace is full of royals and their servants, guards and warriors, ambassadors from other realms, nobles and their families, ministers and officials, any of whom for all we know could be capable of the level of magic necessary to let the Frost Giants in. Isn’t it kind of funny how through the entire sequence from Jotunheim onwards, at no point do they even consider that anyone else could be responsible? Loki is the only candidate who ever gets mentioned, and once his name is out there they basically just talk around it until they’ve come up with a rationalization that seems plausible. They have really got it in for him, haven’t they? Heimdall, at least, had something in the way of firsthand evidence: he directly witnessed Loki using the same spell that the Frost Giants had used to conceal themselves. (Since, of course, only one person in all the realms could know how to use any given spell.) Too bad he didn’t, y’know, share his evidence with anyone else so that they could use it to inform their decisions.

Of course, when watching for the first time the scene where the W3 conclude that Loki was responsible for letting the Frost Giants in, we are cheering for them to make exactly that connection: we the audience already ‘know’ that Loki is evil, and we want the characters to ‘know’ it too. But once you stop to actually consider which characters knew what at which point, it all falls apart like a badly made burger.

Man, I just love this post.  I don’t even need to say anything more than that.

Yes. Especially in light of the fact that Laufey said “the House of Odin is full of traitors.” And the invasion of the Weapons Vault was perfectly timed to matched the highlight of the coronation ceremony … which only Odin could control. And Odin without being told knew the Jotuns were in the weapons vault, and unleased the Destroyer accordingly.

(Source: enchantedbyhiddles)

long response to mosellegreen on why I don't call Loki a villain

krakensdottir:

pasikonik:

small-potato-of-defiance:

condwiramurs:

(Snip)

"bring down the actual force of evil here - the oppressive system and his father"

Words cannot describe how revolted I am by the scene at the end when Thor actually calls Odin “a great king and a good father”. Ugh! What a joke! And a “fantastic” way of making Thor a blind moral coward. :/

I wish we were past the point of cramming Father Knows Best / Your Elders Were Right All Along / He Was Just Doing What’s Best For You ideals into stories like this, but nope.

And that was in the first film, where my opinion of Odin was relatively high. I mean, I knew he was an absolute monarch who’d lied to one of his kids and banished the other in a fit of insulted pride, that he made dumb tactical decisions when he was sleepy, and that he was the worst person ever to mediate a potential suicide… but seriously, I was willing to believe back then that he did actually love them, that he was acting out of a really twisted sense of right and wrong rather than actual malice. (Yes, shocking - I didn’t start out with a preconceived determination of Odin being evil and bend all evidence to fit that conclusion, just to bust another Loki’s Resistance myth here. I actually gave him the benefit of the doubt for a long time.)

Even then, though, “wisest king and best father” seemed just a bit much. I wouldn’t have even called him a good father. I assumed he was trying in his own way, but the results speak for themselves, and the results were not great. So Thor’s weird, seemingly blind praise left me wondering if he’d really learned anything at all. Ah, foreshadowing…

I am not the person to talk, since I saw Thor only after watching the Avengers. But I couldn’t help thinking, there’s an easter egg hidden in this film … the official ending is not the real story… And after the TTDW I’m even more sure that’s true.

fallintosanity:

image

Under a cut because long post is long. :)

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There’s a lot going on here, so reblog for bandwidth. But my two cents are that that ever since Branaugh combined the figures of the (good, beloved, brother) Balder with (star-crossed, evil-in-the-eyes-of-Asgard) Loki, Branaugh unleased a more political question upon the MCU than had ever been asked so far: what should the story of a hero be, if the hero should not be the hero? for in the comics, Thor gives up the throne of Asgard to Balder. But in the MCU, does that mean he should give up the throne to Loki? And does that throw into doubt all that we have seen to date of Asgard, the realm eternal, shining forth across the stars?